My recent post on Glossika’s “Mass Sentence Method” has turned out to be one of the most popular posts I’ve ever written. I promised a followup, but this isn’t it. Due to a violent bout of 腸胃炎, remodeling in my building at the only time of day I have available to record the sentences (thus hindering my actually recording them), and the TOCFL coming up this weekend have all prevented me from using this technique as much as I want, so I’m not really able to give a full report on it yet. I have seen some results from it so far though. Enough to know that I want to continue, and really buckle down and do it right.
But before I get to that, there’s a misconception in language learning that needs to be addressed. It can be summed up as, “words + grammar = language”. Nothing can be further from the truth. A friend of mine has a student who recently said “According to my comprehension…”. Well, that may be grammatical, but English speakers don’t say that. We say things like “as far as I understand” or the like. This, of course, was a translation of “據我所理解”, and that’s exactly the problem. The student was saying something in Chinese, only using English words and grammar.
Unfortunately it usually isn’t even that good. There’s an idea that there is “One Word” in the target language that corresponds to “One Word” in your native language. This is why you get sentences like “I have ever been to the US” (find the 曾經 in that sentence). Now, so that it doesn’t look like I’m just picking on Taiwanese people’s English, let me get to the point: We do this exact same thing in Chinese. This is not a one-way street. What’s really painful is to hear an American doing this in Chinese, but using no tones and American English sentence intonation.
I do this all the time (except I have to say my tones and intonation are fairly good). I’m like many students at MTC and other language schools. I know a lot of words. I can understand a very large portion of what I hear around me every day. I attend graduate-level lectures in my field and keep up just fine. I read academic books and journal articles with very little problem. Same deal with newspapers and magazines. You might call me “advanced”, aside from the fact that I just don’t feel advanced, and I certainly don’t sound advanced when I talk. I tend to use a lot of circumlocutions, and I say things in a way that just seems weird to native speakers. They understand what I mean, but it certainly isn’t the way they’d say it.
A friend of mine was asked the other day by one of his English students how he got to his current (very much near-native) level of Chinese. His response was “I listened”. What he meant of course is that he listened to native speakers and copied the way they said things. Pronunciation, intonation, word choice, even the shape of their mouth. I’m going to call this “modeling”. You don’t have to go as far as staring at their mouth while they talk (though he claims to have done precisely that for the first 15 years he lived here), but you do need to pay close attention.
And that is exactly where this method comes into play. These books I’m buying are not for learners of Chinese, they’re for native speakers. In learning material you get this weird subset of the language, and usually a very dated one at that (just give your textbook or MP3 recordings to a native speaker and watch their reaction). It’s good to use this stuff to set the foundation, but you have to branch out of it at some point if you want to talk the way people actually talk.
So these sentence books contain Chinese the way people actually speak it, rather than some twisted around version of “how we ought to teach it to foreigners”. So this is the material we should “listen” to and model. Of course, other native media like TV, books, etc. are extremely important too, but these books contain thousands of sentences specifically intended for everyday conversation purposes. There are even books specifically for business purposes, travel, etc. I’ve found myself in situations since starting this method, where before I would have just done the best I could, but now I know exactly the right word. And it works every time.
So that’s what appears to be the strength of this technique. Now of course, you can get that from just listening. Talk to people, watch TV, etc., and pay attention, model their sentences, etc. And that will work. But doing this method makes it much more systematic and efficient. Not to mention that the scope of these sentences is very wide on purpose, whereas if you’re left to your own vices you’ll most likely have sentences from a much narrower pool of topics. Not that you’re boring or anything. But here’s a list of the topics in one of my books:
Chapter1 一般表達–Express Oneself
喜、怒、哀、樂、情緒、感覺相關會話
Unit 1 開心 Happiness
Unit 2 驚訝 Surprise
Unit 3 傷心 Sadness
Unit 4 生氣 Anger
Unit 5 愛戀 Love
Unit 6 同情 Sympathy
Unit 7 抱怨 Complaints
Unit 8 討厭 Hate
Unit 9 恐慌 Panic
Unit 10 擔心 Worry
Unit 11 絕望 Despair
Unit 12 指責 Accusation
Unit 13 煩惱 Annoyance
Unit 14 請求 Request
Unit 15 尷尬；為難 Embarrassment
Unit 16 焦慮 Anxiety
Unit 17 意見 Suggestion
Unit 18 邀請 Invitation
Unit 19 承諾；答應 Promises
Unit 20 警告 Warning
Unit 21 誤會 Misunderstanding
Unit 22 制止；教誨 Teachings
Unit 23 道別 Farewell
Unit 24 疑慮 Doubt
Unit 25 感謝 Gratitude
Unit 26 約定時間 Appointment
Unit 27 後悔 Regret
Unit 28 熱情；熱衷 Enthusiasm
Unit 29 不滿；憂鬱 Dissatisfaction
Unit 30 安慰 Comfort
Unit 31 貶低 Depreciation
Unit 32 贊同 Agreement
Unit 33 反對 Opposition
Unit 34 爭吵；責罵 Arguments
Unit 35 道歉 Apologies
Unit 36 希望；期待 Wishes
Unit 37 原諒 Forgiveness
Unit 38 害怕 Fear
Unit 39 稱讚 Praise
Unit 40 祝福 Blessings
Unit 41 鼓勵 Encouragement
Chapter2 日常生活–Daily Life
起居、飲食、旅遊、娛樂、教育、保健相關會話
Unit 42 問候 Greetings
Unit 43 介紹 Introductions
Unit 44 天氣 Weather
Unit 45 學校 School
Unit 46 房屋 Houses
Unit 47 訂房 Room Reservations
Unit 48 節日 Holidays
Unit 49 交往 Relationship
Unit 50 婚禮 Weddings
Unit 51 流行服飾 Fashion
Unit 52 飲食 Food and Drinks
Unit 53 餐廳 Restaurants
Unit 54 遊樂園 Amusement Parks
Unit 55 網路 Internet
Unit 56 電視 Television
Unit 57 旅行社 Travel Agencies
Unit 58 飛機 Airplanes
Unit 59 通關 Customs
Unit 60 地鐵 Subways
Unit 61 巴士 Buses
Unit 62 計程車 Taxis
Unit 63 汽車 Cars
Unit 64 火車 Trains
Unit 65 租車 Car Rentals
Unit 66 露營 Camping
Unit 67 海灘 At the Beach
Unit 68 迷路 Getting Lost
Unit 69 照相 Taking Pictures
Unit 70 觀光 Sightseeing
Unit 71 按摩 Massage
Unit 72 歌劇 Operas
Unit 73 購物 Shopping
Unit 74 博物館 Museums
Unit 75 電影 Movies
Unit 76 音樂 Music
Unit 77 夜生活 Nightlife
Unit 78 聚會 Parties
Unit 79 運動 Sport
Unit 80 健身 Exercise
Unit 81 健康 Health
Unit 82 租屋 House Rentals
Unit 83 美容 Make-up
Unit 84 書籍 Books
Unit 85 看醫生 Going to a Doctor
Unit 86 自然災害 Disaster
Chapter3 辦公室常用–Offices
電話、人事、股市、會計、銀行、保險相關會話
Unit 87 接電話 Picking up the Phone
Unit 88 打電話時 Making Phone Calls
Unit 89 通話時 On the Phone
Unit 90 電話及相關服務 Telephone Service
Unit 91 銀行 Banks
Unit 92 股市投資 Stock Market
Unit 93 郵局 Post Offices
Unit 94 保險 Insurance
Unit 95 辦公事務 In the Office
Unit 96 商談 Conference
Unit 97 詢價與報價 Quote Request
Unit 98 付款與索賠 Payment and claims
Unit 99 工作分配與訓練 Assignments and Training
Unit 100 同事交往 Colleagues
Unit 101 圖表報告 Charts and Demonstration
Unit 102 信件 Letters
Unit 103 市場調查 Marketing Research
Unit 104 會議 Meetings
Unit 105 公司簡介 Brief Introductions
Unit 106 接待客戶Receiving Customers
Unit 107 行銷廣告 Marketing
Unit 108 訂單確認 Order Confirmation
Unit 109 業務往來 Businesses
Unit 110 加班與壓力 Working Overtime
Unit 111 展覽會 Exhibitions
Unit 112 合約 Contracts
Unit 113 產品推薦 Product Promotion
Unit 114 出差 Business Trips
Chapter4 各類口試–Oral Tests
求職、應考相關會話
Unit 115 面試 Interviews
Unit 116 興趣 Hobbies
Unit 117 家庭背景 Family Background
Unit 118 旅遊經驗 Travel Experience
Unit 119 詢問學校生活 School Life
Unit 120 所學專業 Specialties
Unit 121 報考動機 Test-Taking Motivation
Unit 122 個人宗教信仰 Religion
Unit 123 健康狀況 Health Situations
Unit 124 工作經驗 Working Experience
Unit 125 個人經歷 Personal Experience
Unit 126 工作及生活態度 Attitudes
Unit 127 求職 Seeking Jobs
Unit 128 辭職 Resigning
Unit 129 薪資福利 Salaries
Unit 130 未來計劃 Future Plans
Unit 131 文化傳統 Cultural Tradition
Unit 132 文化差異 Culture Differences
Unit 133 環境議題 Environmental Issues
Unit 134 社會議題 Social Issues
Just look at that list. I have no idea how to talk about makeup in Chinese, for example. I had to help my wife buy some makeup the other day and it was torture for me because it was like the girl was suddenly speaking another language. She was talking about “coverage”, so it’s not like this was some really specialized vocabulary. This kind of everyday vocabulary that isn’t really part of my every day really stumps me sometimes. I wouldn’t have been upset if it was the name of some exotic oil in the makeup or something like that, but this kind of stuff is basic. The same friend I mentioned above said that to really improve your Chinese, you have to change your situation. Every situation will have its own appropriate vocabulary, right? I see these books as a good way of doing this systematically.
And that list is from a book of 4000 sentences. I have nearly 40,000 sentences sitting in my office right now. I probably won’t use them all, but I’m aiming for at least 20,000. There will be a lot of repetition, but repetition is good.
I’m going to end this long, disorganized article (once again, I’m not even sure if I’ve said what I intended to say at the beginning) by linking to a few videos by Glossika. The first few are in English, and then there are a few with him giving a talk about his method in Chinese. There are other videos where he talks about it, but I can’t seem to remember which ones they are. I would seriously recommend taking the time to watch all of these videos all the way through, because there’s good stuff in all of them.
And in this one, our suspicions that he might actually be insane are reinforced (I know you were thinking it):
ChineseQuest 
I guess this would be a good time to mention that I’m not in any way affiliated with Glossika or Mike Campbell. I met him once, and that’s as far as it goes. His approach just makes a lot of sense to me from a lot of different angles. It’s like a culmination of all the best things I’ve learned and thought of and heard about language learning during the process of learning Chinese, and then turned up to 11. I’m really excited about where my Chinese might go over the next year of seriously applying this method.
Actually you’ve made me really want to give this a shot as speaking is easily my weakest. What books are you using? I’m on books.com.tw with a trigger finger to order 😛
I have several. The one with its contents listed above is called 《英語會話放口袋》. Another is 《英語「常用短句」大全集》, which I like because the last section has a lot of “sentence patterns” that have you riffing on a theme. So Amy “is not good at” telling stories, cooking Chinese food, playing the piano, and photography (so, 愛咪不擅長…). I put “sentence patterns” in quotes like that because I don’t really consider “A cup of tea would be…” to be a sentence pattern, but it’s there, with “just fine”, “fine with me”, and “nice” as finishers. There’s also 《史上最強的英語會話8,000》 and 《臨時需要的一句話英語會話辭典4000句》. I believe the latter has a business version too.
There’s one that looks pretty awesome, other than the fact that it has no recordings. It’s called 《救急英語會話10000句》, and I may end up hiring a native speaker to read the sentences into a microphone if I decide I want to use the book.
The great thing is that these types of books are available for a lot of languages. There are several books of 10,000 sentences in Japanese, and I plan to use those when I finally have time to devote to Japanese. I’ve seen them for Korean and French too, and I’m sure there are others. There are apparently a bunch of these for different languages published in China too, so if simplified characters aren’t an obstacle that’s an option too. 若水堂 may even have some available.
Wow! Thanks for the comprehensive list! I’m really interested in giving this method a try. Curious on how tiring it is going through Audacity, but I think it’s a good idea to repeat it after the native speaker, as you said. I’m a little vague on the amount per day. That is, if he’s doing 500 per day, are they always new? What about the old ones? It sounded like, from the video, he will review the same ones over 3 days, so I’m wondering if it’s 500 over three days then a new 500 later or what. How have you been doing it?
I’ve been doing 100-200 per day, then reviewing them over the next 5 days. I only do it on weekdays (but I do reviews on the weekends), so I do anywhere from 500-1000 per week. I have no idea how he does 500 per day, but I can’t.
Unfortunately due to the factors I mentioned at the beginning of the article, I haven’t actually done much of this yet. After the TOCFL this Saturday though, this will be my main project and I’ll be doing it every morning, so hopefully a month from now I can report back with some good results.
I can say the Audacity part isn’t much fun. Putting the silences in isn’t too bad, but recording can be frustrating. I’m still trying to figure out ways to streamline the process, but one thing I’ve figured out is to put in more silence than you think you need to repeat each sentence. Otherwise the next sentence has already started and you either have to scramble to catch up or you have to pause it, rewind to find where you were, and continue. That’s easily the most time-consuming part of the process, so anything you can do to eliminate the possibility of that happening is a good thing.
I just discovered the first one I listed (英語會話放口袋) doesn’t have Chinese on the recordings. Bummer, because I like that one (just bought it a few days ago).
Now to wait for that awesome 24 hour delivery service to my local 7-11!
I may have to consider how I want to approach it. I work full-time and while I can try 100-200 sentences a day (20-30 minutes maybe?), I wouldn’t have the time to deal with splicing the files up in Audacity, though I think the way you do it makes it a lot cleaner and more effective. I’ll see what I can come up with. I figure I will record it, listen to my recording the next day compared with the original, then re-record a new version while adding on an extra 100-200 new sentence.
Hardcore!!!
But, I’m actually really -lazy- and adverse to doing this kind of “hard” language work. As such, though, my speaking has suffered for it so I do look forward to trying this. Also great practice so you don’t have to make some poor native speaker suffer my venomous tones and pronunciation.
I have to say I like the topics in 《英語會話放口袋》, if nothing else it will make for a good resource!
I really need to sit down with Audacity and figure some things out at some point. There’s got to be a better way than what I’m doing. Fortunately there are plugins that do make the process easier, like “Reduce Noise” and “Truncate Silence”. But I used to work with professional audio editing software during my musician days, and I’m sure Audacity has a lot of the same basic functionality if you mess around with it enough.
I admit to a great deal of laziness too. Like today, I skipped class and have hardly done anything. Anyway, I usually add the silences at night while watching tv or something with my wife, so I don’t have to worry about it in the mornings.
One of the beautiful things about this method is that it does bring your shortcomings into sharp focus. Listening to yourself speaking your native language is bad enough. Listening to yourself speaking Chinese is near torturous.
Keep me posted on how you get on with it, and any insights or improvements you have.
Just got two oft he books in today! I got 連老外都再用的英語「常用短句」and 史上最強的英語會話8000. I noticed some of the entries, and I think you mentioned this in a comment before, that some of them seem more like direct translations than actual Chinese. Has this been a problem for you?
I almost think the grammar–or that they’re this funny translations–wouldn’t be a big issue if you’re just getting used to speaking, not necessarily picking up grammar. Though the downside is that it could possibly ingrain these sentences (and incorrect grammar) in your head.
I want to get my speaking really going because I’ve got defences to prepare for–one for my literature review and another for when I actually finish my thesis. I’d like to make some progress, so this “hardcore” method may be beneficial.
Currently thinking about how I’ll go about it, may try the Audacity method and see how it goes!
I don’t know if I’ve noticed any that actually have incorrect grammar, but more like they go for a direct translation rather than an equivalent phrase in Chinese. I can usually pick these out, but I think if I were to use one of them in conversation, I’d probably find out quickly that I shouldn’t.
I honestly think pulling sentences from native media, a la AJATT, is better as far as acquiring more natural diction. But when the goal is to increase the fluidity of speech (a large part of which is muscle memory), it’s hard to beat having a few tens of thousands of sentences and their recordings to repeat. The range of content is also likely to be much broader, so it’s ideal for adding breadth to your conversational ability. I’ll still be consuming as much native media as possible and paying close attention to how people talk, but the muscle memory, fluidity, and breadth is more likely to come from sentences.
Recently, Mike Campbell posted on Facebook about the difference between his method (as used at his school to teach English) and buxibans. The sheer volume of sentences spoken out loud is insane. He’s one of those guys that doesn’t know how not to think big. If you’re doing 500 sentences per day (again, I find that number difficult to reach), and you’re reviewing the previous 4 days’ sentences on top of that, you’re saying 2,500 sentences per day out loud. Multiply that by a month. Even if I’m doing 200 sentences per day, and only on weekdays, that’s over 21,000 sentence repetitions per month, and 4280 unique sentences.
I think another post on this is in order. I’m not sure when I’ll be able to get around to it, but I’m going to talk about the specifics of what I’m doing. Mike uses stories and things like that in addition to these types of books, so I want to go into that too.
I was just looking through here:
http://audacity.sourceforge.net/manual-1.2/tutorial_ed_beginner3.html
..and while it may be time consuming, doing it the way you’re doing it is probably best. I’ll keep at it.
As an alternative that I literally just thought up as I’m typing this, I’m wondering if I can listen by headphones, and then record them separately into my iPhone or another recording device then do a comparative playback later. Less time cutting in silences and such.
When you put the numbers together it makes sense. I noticed, just by reading through a book published by 三民, starting off reading out loud with the 注音 is hard. But once I got towards the end of the piece, it started to flow a lot easier. Like you said, muscle memory. I imagine you just read straight the 200 sentences, then check for mistakes afterward, and follow-up with them the next day, reading again, then adding more? Or do you focus on correcting mistakes as soon as you make them, or not confident in your pronunciation? I’m currently leaning towards the latter, focusing in the beginning on areas that are especially weak and then continue on to the next sentence. I’m hoping to start this method in the next few days, I think once I get going it will be easier to fit into my work schedule. I may try the method I mentioned above.
Hope it is still working well for you!
I definitely look forward to any future posts you might write on this topic!
If I make a major mistake in pronunciation, or get really tripped up by the sentence, I’ll pause, back up, and re-record it before moving on. Otherwise, I try my best to just push through and record it as much as possible in one fell swoop. It gets easier the more I do it. Today I recorded nearly 300 sentences in about 40 minutes, which was by far the best I’ve been able to do yet.
I mentioned this already, but it’s worth repeating: I’ve found that leaving more silence than I think I need makes me much less likely to have to stop and re-record things. That was a big part of why I was able to do more today than usual.
The downside to recording so much today is that it resulted in 25 minutes of audio (including silences so I can repeat while I review), so that makes for a lot more review time. I may see about leaving less silence in my own recordings so reviews don’t take as long. It’s easier to repeat sentences I’ve already recorded than to repeat brand new ones, so maybe this will work.
Sounds like a good way of doing it! Helps keep you focused on mistakes as well. I’m going to try setting up my recording/playing method and see how it goes. I’m planning on writing up a blog post about it. I hope to try it for about a month first and see how the results are around the beginning of December.
Leaving more silence likely leaves you feeling less rushed as well. Then you can focus on getting the sentence out. How slow/fast do you read it? I was figuring normal speed, trying to match that of the native speaker on the CD itself.
Still when you mention “25 minutes of audio” and “review times” I really do wonder how Mike gets in 500/day. That is astounding.
Leaving more space definitely helps you feel less rushed. I think that’s what I was trying to articulate, but didn’t do a good job of. I think it’s really the key to having a smooth recording session.
I do think that if I took some of the silence out of the recordings I make, it would make the reviews easier to deal with. More shadowing and less listen-and-repeat.
Actually, I just went and experimented a little with that, and it cut the amount of audio down to around 17 minutes. Much more doable, though still a bit long. I found that for sentence recordings, I want about 1.5 seconds of silence between sentences, because the disconnected nature of a list of sentences makes it difficult for my brain to keep up otherwise. When using a narrative, the silence can be shorter without any negative effect, because the sentences all flow together.
For the record, I’m also using the Supplemental Chinese Readers series put out by 正中書局 alongside the sentence books (these would be the “narratives” I just mentioned). They’re intermediate-level readers, but they tell famous stories from Chinese history that any native speaker will know, and they do it in a 白話 style that makes them useful for this method. Mike recently put up videos on YouTube for the first two stories in 中國寓言, formatted perfectly for this sort of thing (speaker reads a phrase, then pauses for you to repeat). The books also have lots of example sentences. Mike gushed over these books when I was at his place a few weeks ago, and made some really positive comments about them on the Glossika Facebook page a few months ago when asked how he learned Chinese. I’m using these as much for cultural knowledge as for anything else though, and am prioritizing the sentence books.
I have recordings for the rest of that book, but not for any others in the series. Mike says he’s planning to do videos for the rest of the series, but who knows if that will happen or how long it will take. I’m thinking about hiring a native speaker to record them for me in the same fashion as Mike’s videos.
Goodness I feel like we should be doing this over coffee.
After I give my method a shot, I’ll let you know if it seems to work okay as far as timing goes. The downside with the way I want to do it is that the audio and the recording are separate–and the English still hangs around like a phantom.
Having the “flow” that you mentioned is probably important, as it keeps you talking without breaks that might trip you up. But, as I have yet to try it, I can’t speak from experience.
Those books you mentioned seem like a good idea, for cultural tidbits, but the sentences are probably good to get used to situational Chinese. I also want to pick up some shadowing of actors or people from talk shows to get an idea of speaking in that way, so it isn’t so “book like”.
Actually, that’s always been kind of a tough problem for me: do I speak more book-like/academic? Or more down to earth? That is, choosing to speak book-like for classes and presentations in school yet trying to speak “down-to-earth” when outside. Interestingly, my old professor said “Why mimic the people on TV?” as there’s no stigmata against learned folk as there might be in the states. That is, you can speak academic wherever you do and shouldn’t feel worried about it. So I’ve come to not worry so much about shadowing people on TV and more focusing on sounding professional and academic as that is the field I’m going into. I hope this paragraph made some sense, and if it did, what do you think about it?
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I think about that too. I’m not sure what the right path is as far as that goes, but I’m not going to worry about it too much right now. First I want to focus on getting fluent, then later I can worry about using more refined speech in class. But there’s always the series of lectures from ICLP’s 社會大學 course that I could use as practice material for that later on.
Mike just posted a new video containing a lot of information about what he does at his school. There’s some good stuff in there, I felt like it was 30 minutes well spent. You can also see the books I mentioned above on his shelf (to the left of his head, on the same shelf as the big black 每日一字). I picked up the rest of that series today, along with a 台語 textbook from 台灣e店 and some really cool, yet intimidating, 甲骨文 stuff from 萬卷樓. Quite the haul today! Anyway, here’s the video:
Actually, his book collection makes me feel very inadequate. Oh well, now I have a goal! I’ll have to look into that 社會大學.
I quite like the 台灣e店. By the way, if you want Taiwanese, I found a book that reads out sentences in Mandarin, followed up the Taiwanese equivalent. I’ve just been listening on bus rides into Taipei, but it has helped quite a lot getting used to hearing it. I’ve picked up some stuff just by passively listening.
Quite the haul indeed! Don’t you love that though??
You might have a hard time finding 社會大學 unless you have a friend at ICLP that will get it for you. I’ve got the MP3s though (I don’t think there’s a textbook for it anyway), so just let me know if you want them.
I’m interested in the title of that 台語 book. I’m just dabbling right now, but I plan to learn a good over the next few years.
It’s a blessing and a curse that academic books are so cheap here. A curse because I’m going to have to get another book shelf soon. 🙂
Don’t worry, I’ve got a friend on the inside 😉 They are very much Apple-like with their textbooks, aren’t they? I may just have to take you up on that MP3 offer!
The Taiwanese textbook I found is called 《漢語拼音迷你台語》. The Mandarin in the book has a mainland accent, if you’re interested. It’s only a little over 3,300 sentences but it’s a good start I think. if nothing else, as Mike says, “to get the mouth moving”–especially important in Taiwanese!
It’s a huge curse! And the amount of awesome bookstores available, the ease of ordering offline! Ahhhh!
I got to watch that video coming in to Taipei today, quite interesting. Also the first time I’ve heard him speak Mandarin. Wow.
I’m Glossika and I approve of this post! Haha,
Some fans pointed out this post to me and have gotten really excited, so I like what you’re doing. Seriously, you said you met me before. But let’s together and do a YouTube interview and do some Q&A to see if we can fill in some of the gaps for the public. Do you have my number? Or email me at gmail, (glossika)
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